Official Luthiers Forum!

Well, at least we're giving Michael a good range of opinions to choose from.

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Pete
http://www.petewoodmanguitars.com

Opinions are like =ahem= uh, navels -- everybody has one.

Each of us has a preference. I tend to lean more toward LG's philosphy, that is, trying to keep things simple. But one of the primary purposes of a website is to impart information, and to do this, often paragraphs that consist of more than 20 words or so are necessary. I'm willing to go only so far in dealing with the unwashed masses' unwillingness or inability to read, and their short attention spans that require constant stimuli to stay engaged. I don't believe it is asking too much that they exercize those brain cells that have not yet atrophied when viewing my site's content. If they think it is, then I probably don't need them as future clients anyway.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

Of course. However, there is a distinct difference between well presented
and organized information and slip shod design. The idea of a website is
to make information easy. We designers accomplish that through
different means, but being visually rich is a big deal. The difference is
wanting to look at the text verses getting the impression that the site
looks so ghetto, why spend the time reading a 250 words for nothing?

We've been researching the effects of tv for over fifty years, and they all
point to the fact that we're multi-sensory oriented people. We're not
web-crawlers prowling around to strip all information for google, we're
human beings who get more interested when it doesn't look like a mess.

Simplicity and quality aren't mutually exclusive things. I think simplicity is deceptively hard. It forces you to really consider what you're trying to present and to cut out extraneous things.

I don't have a problem reading longer text on a website, but if you expect most people to stick around and read it, hire a brutal editor. Good grammar and correct spelling are a given, but organization, content and clarity are equally important for a professional website. None of us automatically deserve people's time and attention.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Right right. I agree completely.

The only reason I'm speaking out is because I think you guys deserve the
best option possible.

[QUOTE=James Orr] I layed this out last night http://
www.languagepool.net/html/[/QUOTE]
James, I think that you've presented a nearly ideal front page for our purposes. It's appealing visually, its navigation is easy to understand, and yes, it looks professional while remaining "simple." Your text is a little academic, though.

There's a reason why going to the "pro's" may be the best thing to do when it's time to present your work and philosophy in a format other than face-to-face.

Hesh,

I understand your viewpoint, but you're looking at these things from the "inside." You know what the process is like, and you know that dressing well, spelling well, and knowing how to write a cogent essay are not necessary to build a superior guitar. Many, if not most, potential customers do not understand that. A web site is like a resume and a job interview rolled into one; and on top of that, it's for a professional position. It's your virtual face, handshake, and "here, try my guitar."

As for your examples: Somogyi (and Elliot, Olson, Benedetto, et.al.) was well established before the internet was invented, and will be making a living building guitars until he can't do it anymore. He doesn't even need a website, or a brochure or a business card for continued success. That's not so for most of the rest of us; so why take a chance that "relaxed and homey" really looks like "stupid and sloppy?"

As for the Ann Arbor Art Festival, signage and promo material don't matter that much because customers can see the artists' work first-hand. It's like a visit to a luthier's shop, where presentation means much less than the actual product.

Comments?

If i ever build a website, it will reflect my building philosophy, i will have to sit down and think then write with my heart and soul on what i want the potential buyer to know, i'll probably have a simple and humble website where people will get to see the product in the best of pics i can have and they will get to know the kind of builder that I am. I agree with Hesh on this, i'm thinking that first of all, people who buy custom made instruments already know that luthiers are artists and that they want to see the product and order one if they like what they see!

Careful Hesh. You're talking about a visually rich, multi-sensory thing
going on here :)

And Carlton, thank you very much.

I define a successful website in one word: hospitality. Please please
please show me your ethos and personality as a builder, just make it easy
and enjoyable!

And as a developer, I do think of websites as art, not simply left brain
foolery... The left brain stuff is what makes it unenjoyable for me and
why I'd prefer to move on sooner than later when I get my full teaching
credential.James Orr38918.7651967593

Hesh, I find your examples odd, because I would have been happy to site either Somogyi's or Klepper's sites as good sites.

Why? They are easy to navigate - you always know where you are. Buttons don't move around, you don't have to strain your eyes.

There's design. Simple design, but design. Things are layed out, text isn't allowed to wrap whereever html puts it by default.

There's information. Its not long list of bulleted information about what the nut material is, what color the purfling scheme is. It's a well thought out presentation that lets me know what is different about these guitars, and why I should want them.

Graphics are used well. When I need to see a picture, or when a picture tells more than words, then there's a small thumbnail there. There's no gratuitous pictures, and nothing outsided so I have to scroll left or right to read. I can click on a picture, and get more information.

I get the style and philosophy of the builder quickly. Klepper is heavy on the construction details, Somogyi shows us his art. It's clear from the website that these guys stand out in their field, and that they are passionate about their guitar. And it only takes a couple of clicks to get completely drawn in.

So, if you think we (or at least I) would have put down these sites, that is the opposite of the case.

This is what we are arguing for: present information that will get the buyer excited. Seduce her. Make us covet the guitar. Don't tell us that your supplier of spruce is cheaper than the other guy, so you can save us 20 bucks. Don't tell me that purfling scheme is bwbw, that the lower bout dimensions are X and the soundhole dimensions are Y, etc. Don't tell me your not that bad compared to a factory guitar.

Tell me about the beutiful bell like sound of your trebles, or how hard you work to get all the notes above the 12th fret to play evenly, how seductively this guitar sings. You can do all that truthfully, honestly, without snake oil or pretension.

In Michael's first cut I didn't see that stuff, so I pointed it out. As he as added content, I think it's a lot better, though I still see no reason at all to look at his 6 strings - based on his site. I'm not going to buy a guitar because he has a cheap supplier of spruce, or chooses cheap but good tuners. :) I have no idea what sound he is striving for, whether he has one characteristic sound or has several models he chooses from to get the sound I want. Klepper, Reynolds - they make me think that sound and aesthetics is what they are striving for. Michael - well, wood selection is really the only topic discussed. I'd buy Howard's guitar.

On the other hand the new information for 10 strings does pique my interest. I want to know more (seriously) about these guitars. Because he puts aside the "the nut is bone" stuff and talks about playing for 30 years, and wanting to get that 10 string sound. I get a feeling for a guy who loves this style, and is probably going to be good at making them. I'd personally advise him to put more in there from the player's point of view, but he caught my eye. I don't know if he makes a guitar that *I'd* want, but I know that I'd probably want to talk to him about it (if I was buying).

And honestly, it took me a few tries to figure out where content was. If I hadn't been persistant, I might never have seen the interesting stuff he wrote, or heard the sound clips.

These "give me your opinion" threads are tough. But I think you really have to listen, though not do what everyone says. I've taken my guitars around to different shops. In some cases they've given me opposite advise about the same thing. But if 3 out of 4 people say your neck hurts their hands, you better change it. If a bunch of people say your text colors hurt their eyes, well...

And conversely if somebody says they prefer a specific heel style, or borders around photos, it's clear its safe to ignore that as nothing more than a personal preference.

Food for thought, I hope.

Hey! I didn't write that my source for spruce (or cedar) was cheap! I get my spruce from Shane! It's some of the best spruce I've ever seen . . . actually a few sets I got from him are the best I've ever seen. I just mentioned I buy it direct from the loggers, which I do in both cases. And regarding the Schaller and Gotoh tuners I use, I stress value. They may be relatively inexpensive, but they're not "cheap." Besides, as I point out, options are always available.

Roger, I know your comments are well intended, and I appreciate them. As a musician, composer, artist and author, I am usually disappointed if, when I ask for constructive criticism, all I get is praise. Hey, praise is good, but I want to hear and read differing opinions so I can understand ways to improve my efforts.

Regarding the site as it stands now, really about all I will admit to is round one is finished. I've been in contact with my website guy today, who is a graphics artist and a guitarist, and I'm hopeful that he will be able to work through the site, making the improvements it needs. But if it takes him forever (as it has been), at least I have something up there in the interim.

I took a look at Howard's site, and I agree -- it is very well done. I also realized as I was reading through it that I should probably have expended a bit more verbage on attempting to describe the sound of my guitars. Although that'll take some doing if I don't want my descriptions to end up sounding like everybody else's. Oh well, nobody ever said any of this was gonna be easy.


Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

Looking really good Michael! I really like the layout and photos...very elegant! I especially like that you have a guestbook...I want to add one to my site, but haven't figured that one out yet!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Welp, as luthiers we are often forced to wear many hats. It sure cain't hurt to know a bit of HTML I guess.

LP, my web hosting service provides the guestbook I installed. Setup was simple. Check with your hosting service -- they may offer something similar.

I have another request. Since I have received several comments that the dark background and light text is hard to read, I've changed the home page some. Now it has a light brown background -- not all that different in color from the one here at the OLF, now that I think about it, hmmmm -- and the text is black. Plus I've bumped up the text size a notch. This is a "test" home page, with the file name index1.html. You can see it here. If you click away from this page, you'll be back to the gray on blue, however. I've only played around with this one page so far.

So, opinions? Which do you like better?

Best,

Michael
Michael McBroom38918.8940046296

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Michael,

The new front page is much, much better. The text is clearly and convincingly written, the photos are well-chosen and the color is much easier on the eye.

Here are some further suggestions (some of which you may have already considered): Center the captions under your photos. You need a real logo for the top of the page, centered on the page between those two very well-selected photos. Get the page's header and your introductory prose centered on each other (looks lopsided now). Keep the spacing between your link buttons equal.

Take this for what it's worth, but I'd change the "I specialize in building..." sentence to something like, "Classical guitars are my passion, and the ten-string guitar is my specialty." I wouldn't even mention your steel string on the opening page, because folks won't be looking at your site for steel. Put it on your "models" page as something for crossover classical players to consider.

I'd also urge you to not shortchange the six-string on your site. If you can offer a standardized six for the same price (or even a bit less) as your Marlowe ten, I think you'll generate some real interest if the word gets out. There are lots of regional, national and educational avenues for doing that. There are new players every year who would love a hand-made American classical for under $2K!

I have to say that I agree with a lot of what Roger has to say about highlighting the quality of your instruments instead of the frugality of your parts. For instance:

"I get my spruce from Shane! It's some of the best spruce I've ever seen . . . actually a few sets I got from him are the best I've ever seen."

Say THAT!!! People aren't interested in how much it cost you. They want to know how much it will cost them, and if it's any good..."Wow, you can make me THAT for only that much?!!!". As for tuning machines, how about, "My standard Schaller tuning machines have proven their reliable quality on thousands of guitars, but I will provide any brand of your choice for an appropriate additional charge." That way a prospective buyer will know that his or her tuners will work just fine as they are.

Michael, you've been taking all this criticisim in good spirit, and for that I applaude you!

[QUOTE=Michael McBroom] Hey! I didn't write that my source for spruce (or cedar) was cheap! I get my spruce from Shane! It's some of the best spruce I've ever seen . . . actually a few sets I got from him are the best I've ever seen. I just mentioned I buy it direct from the loggers, which I do in both cases. And regarding the Schaller and Gotoh tuners I use, I stress value. They may be relatively inexpensive, but they're not "cheap." Besides, as I point out, options are always available.[/QUOTE] You're right. It comes down to personal preference here, I guess. You are targeting a 'best value for the dollar' audience, and so you explain how you deliver that. I guess that my bias is to first seduce the buyer - make them acquire GAS over your guitar. I've never gotten GAS over Schaller tuners :) But I have over Howard's work. But that(Howard's approach) may be the wrong approach for a $1500 guitar, I don't know. And you are going to capture the attention of buyers who go gaga over wood selection. I'm not sure how prevelant that breed is in classicals - it seems to occur more in the steel string world. But hey, if that is what your customers are interested in, you should be presenting that information. (as an aside, while I drew some examples from your site, I was also talking generally. There's so many steel string sites out there that say nothing about the guitar or their sound, but tell me the scale length, measurements of all the parts, and latin species names.)

I guess I just have trouble figuring out what your message is. Web sites are limited in the amount of information they have, so I assume the info presented is what is really important. I guess for my guitars if I was to make a bulleted list of things I want a buyer to say about my guitar, it'd go something like this, in order of importance:

* sounds great!
* different models for different sound choices!
* wow, pretty!
* elegant workmanship
...
* has played guitar for 20 years, so knows your needs
...
* i have a choice of woods
* it's not expensive

(Now, getting them to say that stuff requires holding them at gunpoint )

So I would try to craft my message to hit the top 3 or 4 bullets, and just kind of work in the rest if I could. Later, with more experience, more bullets would come into play, like famous customers, years in business, etc. For me, those all come long before wood sources.

You're bulleted priority list would seem to be in the reverse order of mine, based on your website content. I can't argue if that is wrong or right, but I can share the impression I walk away from after reading the website. If you are targeting the value audience, then probably your web site design is pretty good; flash and "prettiness" probably won't draw that clientile in. Great bang for the buck will.
rlabbe38919.3702314815

Great job Michael, very beautiful!

Hesh,

Janet is already endorsing the Janet Marlow Entry Model. I wouldn't be able to use her name on the guitar if this wasn't the case. The fact that she actually played the one I gave her in Concert Saturday July 8 speaks volumes to me, at least. For one thing, it means, by definition, that the JME is a concert-quality instrument. It also means that, if it's good enough for Janet to play in concert, it should be good enough for most anyone else.

This particular guitar was strung up for the first time on July 5th. So the strings had barely been stretched in fully by the time she played it in concert. The guitar is still opening up, obviously. Because of all this, I've asked Janet to provide a few comments regarding the guitar after she's been playing it for a couple of weeks, which I intend to display prominently on my website.

The request for comments is also something I've asked of my other clients. I have a few so far, and I need to put them up at the site also.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

I have read this thread and many others with great interest and would like to thank everyone for the invaluable education I am getting here.

As a newbie I do tend to watch, read, and absorb rather than jump right in. So, I may be biting off more than I can chew or placing my neck upon the proverbial chopping block here, therefore, please be gentle...I know it will only hurt for awhile.

Micheal, you have asked for suggestions and input on your WEB site. You have received many great pearls and that is a wonderful thing. I have refrained from commenting on you site as you pretty much admitted, in not so many words, that it is a work-in-progress.

That being said, the teacher in me will not make any comments on the product - yet

However, I would like to offer some input from a consumer's perspective on luthier WEB sites. Since you are all inside, I thought you might not mind a view from an converted outsider.

I am a musician as well as a teacher. I have acquired, learned, and still perform on 7 instruments. When I decided to add the guitar to my repetroire, I knew I didn't want a manufactured "box". There was something to be said about a custom made guitar. I'm sure many of you can come up with dozens of terms to instill a feeling that you derive from your guitars.

But, to me it is SOUL. I wanted a guitar that holds a part of a luthier's soul, his passion.

I went to many WEB sites and perused. There were many that I didn't get past the home page as they were intimidating, stuffy , too ornate, and gave me the sense that all that was being sold was a guitar. Then there were the ones that were too simplistic and said nothing to me. However, there were those that kept me hooked and reading.

Here are the attributes that were affective and are what caused me to "pick up the phone".

- Home page that was not too ornate, not too graphic, complimentary colors, and "to-the-point" link buttons. Tell me something.

-Once inside LOADS of photos with links to closeups.(Come on - luthiers like pictures - the consumer likes pictures too ) Seeing each guitar up close and personal was a plus. Music was great on most sites, but my chosen luthier didn't have that option available.

-What he had to say was a reflection of him. It was honest, to the point, and told me about his passion for guitars. I came away from his site knowing he was confidant, sincere, enthusiastic, and his guitars were as much a part of him as he was of them. He did this by talking of his artistic life journey (mission and goal are over used these days).

-Information. Most consumers don't know the lingo as the builders do - so don't use abbreviations and obscure terms. The woods of each guitar were listed, type of guitar, attributes, and size. Details in info equates detail in workmanship.

Bottom line was that what the luthier said about himself and his passion for his guitars drew me to him. When I made the trip to meet him he was everything his site made him to be. The kicker was when I picked up a guitar that he had just completed and I was blown away. It was loaded with his soul. That completed the package and sold me.

So, Michael, hopefully that gives you something, if anything to add to your "to-do" site list. If not, it might offer a little insight. I suppose one might say the passion in your guitar should be the same passion in your WEB site.

Jeanne



Jeanne38919.6888194444

Very cool input - thanks, Jeanne. Just for some further insight, what
would your impression be if you clicked on the site I linked? Of course
knowing right now it's purely a layout.

http://languagepool.net/htmlJames Orr38919.6242939815